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Wii analysis - Bonus Round
GameTrailers - December 23, 2007
Submitted by ixaarii (444) at 1:03PM PST on December 23, 2007
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4@ixaarii,
I get what you are saying - there are not the kind of hardcore games on the Wii yet that appeal to you and others that have similar tastes (you are representative of part of the hardcore crowd). This was point in saying that a variety of hardcore games are needed on the Wii to appeal to as many segments of the hardcore crowd as possible - no one title is going to attract all hardcore gamers, but one title can attract some hardcore gamers.
About the controls, that is why I have long preferred FPS and RTS (one of my favorite genres) games on the PC, but the Wii controls are as close as you can get to the PC controls on the consoles as of now. I have seen some companies try to bring some innovation on the PS3 and 360 platforms with control set-ups such as the fragfx from SplitFish, but this is merely trying to imitate the PC's controls (which isn't necessarily a bad thing in some cases).
It has been a LONG and friendly discussion. I enjoyed it very much so![ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 294 ]bids
1@lstormy10,
forgot to say: on the topic of controls like you said I agree: i find out outrageous on MS & Sony's part to be in 2007 and on their 3rd/2nd generation and yet not have had come up with a control solution that can fit hardcore precision fps fans & strategy ones.[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 444 ]bids
1@lstormy10,
Just to clarify I do not believe I am representative of hardcore gamers in general like you were saying. I just said that as an example. I am however trying to figure out a bigger picture with obviously just a few pieces so like you said there's a good chance of going wrong.
Of the big titles you mentioned should the fatal frame for the wii not get ported to any other problem I consider that a must have if it turns out good. I'm waiting for games with the production values of say Metal gear 3: I don't care about the technology that much, but I do care about the content and should there be games like that, i don't mean in genre which i kinda dislike, but in the sense that of a game that is non-kid oriented with extremely long cinematics well done and hours of voice acting... that's when I personally will be able to consider the Wii as a hardcore machine. But again: this is my personal view and at the most an example, and I try not to make personal tastes the basis for my theories on the market in general: I realize I'm a bit of an oddity and should not be representative.
Thank you very much for the long and friendly discussion! I'm happy to have learned more and see your views![ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 444 ]bids
2@ixaarii,
A couple of problems with your argument. The first is with that SSBB will not appeal to the hardcore gamer - SSBM was a massive hit on GameCube with the hardcore gamers and is still used for gaming tournaments, just as SSBB will be. I do see many hardcore gamers prefering SSBB over the other franchises that you mentioned, but obviously not every hardcore gamer is going to prefer SSBB. Every hardcore gamer is not the same, every hardcore gamer is not just like you. This is why I said a console must have many great and fantastic titles for the hardcore to be able to appeal to the hardcore crowd - a single title like Bioshock or Mass Effect is not going to be appealing to all hardcore gamers (otherwise they would be enjoying a lot higher sales).
You also mention that you believe it will be treated more like a toy and will only be bought for a single game. This is exactly what happens many times for any console - there a this one single game that appeals a whole ton to the purchaser and they decide to get that console that has the game. Also, if the developers on the Wii can continue to make some great and fantastic experiences, then people will come back to the system - the same as with any other console.
I bought the Wii so I could experience Galaxy and Metroid because I knew they were coming out soon enough and they were "must have" to me. Like I said before: no single game blows the minds of every hardcore gamer (other wise we would have seen some massive sellers in the past). Galaxy and Metroid and SSBB all appeal to and wow parts of the hardcore gamer persuasion. You speak as though you are what every hardcore gamer is - and this is infinitely not true. Not every hardcore gamer is going to be "wow"-ed by Galaxy, Metroid, or SSBB, but then you have to add on other games like the new Fatal Frame coming, No More Heroes, Tales of Symphonia, Fire Emblem - all games that target other parts of the hardcore audience. Not every hardcore gamer is going to be "wow"-ed by Bioshock or Mass Effect (I actually have talked to a good number of hardcore gamers that don't care for Mass Effect because of its technical issues). Nintendo will continue to target the Wii to as many people as possible (it only makes financial sense to them and they know that) and to do that they will continue to target the audience of the hardcore gamers with a variety of games. Will the Wii have as many "hardcore" games as other platforms? No, most likely not. Will the Wii attract and have some "must have" games for parts of the hardcore audience? Of course.
Also, if you have not tried out either Metroid or Medal of Honor: Heroes 2 for the Wii, then I suggest that you do because they have the best FPS controls on any home console to date.[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 294 ]bids
1Time will tell.
In terms Wii being able to do just about anything but just not being developed for right I don't think that's possible. I think obviously any platform that you focus for and develop for can be squeezed for every drop of power and if you choose the right art style like you said you can make it into a smooth running game. But that doesn't allow a lot of freedom in art direction and variety: for this reason the ps2 had an abundance of cartoony platformers like Jak&Dexter: with cartoony looks you could get away with more stuff but if companies want to keep gaming fresh for everybody now they have to start to try a bit on believable humans and that's a toughie.
I personally find it hard to imagine the hardcore gamer preferring SSBB over soulcalibur/tekken/virtual fighter/street fighter and despite it's huge sales. These are games I expect to become tournaments and stuff like that...
You are totally right about MS/Sony throwing a lot of money at this, while Nintendo being more profitable... but now comes the question if in a generally fair action-reaction world you'll see a lot of appreciation for those that invest a lot or for well selling casual games & mini game collection. I personally think their investments will pay out in the long term if they're persistent at it. HOWEVER I think Nintendo deserves and will get a huge reward too because it also did something much needed doing: focused some love on all the "other" people... but what I was trying to say is that these other people are not the hardcore gamer. Sure, they'd like to get him in there too (who wouldn't?) but running after two rabbits can result in catching none, but Nintendo is safe imo as I don't really see Nintendo going that hard after the hardcore, more as an afterthought.
About what I said about "mindblowing", "must have" what I'm trying to say is: while you and all the people who have a wii love Galaxy, Metroid and look forward to SSBB I know a number of people, including myself, of the hardcore gamer persuasion who would probably try them out if they got the chance, but aren't "wow"-ed by them. There's nothing that spectacular that we can see about them: on the other hand Bioshock seems like one you just can't miss, while I can't think of one single Wii game that would promise to have in it so many hours of dialogue and character as Mass Effect looks like from a distance.
You mentioned games using Unreal engine: yes, I know there are a few, but they're not officially supported, they're doing tweaks on their own with the engine: there's a solid reason developers aren't supporting Wii with their big engines. And I believe middleware is very important for the development of gaming, and without it much fewer developers will put in the extra work for non-guaranteed results. I think this will lead to a scarcity of hardcore titles, and with the hardcore player being the one who's constantly wanting new content this can be a big problem. On the other hand this is not at all a problem for the Wii because it's target consumer will probably only play a handful of games. I see it treated much more like a toy, something people don't expect to be constantly coming back to, unlike the 360/ps3 that I'm assuming people are buying like they are buying a tv: not for a speciffic game, but expecting it to be a device that will open them a number of games. Now at this point you're probably thinking to yourself that I'm a stupid freak who just doesn't get it... which may be true (I don't really care about gameplay mechanics, only content) but if you look at this video you'll see some of the biggest names in the gaming industry, people who are saying they're not really using their Wiis. I see a very clear line between hardcore gamers and high sales numbers/large audiences. In capturing these large audiences Nintendo has distanced itself from the hardcore gamer. The hardcore gamer is the one that is willing to make a big investment in his gaming because he knows it's a big part of his life, and expect content suited for that. If Nintendo had been aiming for that guy they would have released a 500$ console with full VR and mindblowing hardware, but we all know what a tricky path that is, so they choose to go for the much easier to please mass market which just needed a reason to get into gaming. The hardcore gamer I don't see identifying with a Mii, instead I see him wanting to make a very detailed character, from hair & eye color to tatoos and accessories... but I don't see the Wii targeted for that...[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 444 ]bids
2@lstormy10,
One game I failed to mention that could have some large impact is Star Wars: The Force Unleashed for the Wii. If LucasArts is able to nail awesome lightsaber and force controls in the title, then it will have undeniable impact (just think of how many Star Wars fans would love to play such a game). Again, this all depends on the developer as it does with any game on any platform - just like it has been for the history of the videogame industry.[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 294 ]bids
1@Laoldar,
You make many good points regarding Nintendo. Even during the N64/GameCube generations, Nintendo (which had horrible third party support) was still able to keep many hardcore gamers happy with the platform. Nintendo will be a player in the videogame hardware market for the continuing future and Nintendo will continue to try to appeal to all types of gamers.[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 294 ]bids
1@ixaarii,
I would argue that the Wii is not being limiting when it comes to your two examples of loading times and size of world saying that some games on the PS3 and 360 have had much worse loading times and sometimes smaller worlds than some games on the Wii. Also, not all games need a super huge world - that was actually one of the complaints some reviewers had of GTA: SA, that the world had too many empty and boring places because the world was so large. I have never once had any bad experience with a load time from a Wii game also - yes, there will be some with bad load times, but that is more of a developer issue, not hardware, just like on any console. Graphics for a Wii game can look really good even compared with games on more powerful consoles (art style can play a large part here). There can be plenty of gameplay innovation on the Wii and there is plenty of hardware with which to do it with. The games on the Wii are not in trouble when it comes to graphics, sound, gameplay, or innovation for reasons that have to do with the console itself - it only goes back to what the developers are doing, just like on any other console or gaming platform.
And I do not see how you can say that none of the hardcore games coming out the Wii for the first part of next year will not have an impact and will be "fantastic" or "mind blowing must-have experience". You are immediately discounting SSBB - one of the largest titles on any platform next years and a system seller. No More Heroes is looking at being a game that while with some technical issues (because of the developer choosing to focus more on art direction and just plain having substance - not the hardware). De Blob is looking to be a very solid Katamari-like experience without being a rip-off of Katamari (and we all know Katamari had impact). Even this year we saw Galaxy have major impact and we had Metroid and Medal of Honor: Heroes 2 have impact in the console FPS control department showing that the Wii-mote can do better FPS control than any regular controller of the PS3 or 360.
Also, out of the hardcore titles released for the PS3 and 360, many are not great at all and very few turn out to be "fantastic" or "mind blowing".
PC gamers? PC gamers are not the only ones looking for a console. Those hardcore games that have not picked up a console from this generation are a much larger group and are often convinced to pick up a console from games that do have impact and can become system sellers like Galaxy, Metroid, No More Heroes, the new Tales of Symphonia, the next Fatal Frame (I got one person wanting a Wii real bad once they heard about this from my comment on one of the articles on Kotaku), Mario Kart, Spore, Civilization Revolution, etc. Just having a space opera on your console is not going to sell systems by itself because it does not appeal to everyone and diffently does not blow the minds of most people, having a wide selection of great and fantastic games is what sells consoles.[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 294 ]bids
3@ixaarii,
You need to consider the amount of money that companies like Sony and Microsoft are dumping into this. While Nintendo made a lot of profit, Microsoft lost billions of dollars over several years. Now, Sony is losing a ton of cash on the PS3. When companies put up so much cash into these systems, "doing well" isn't good enough. If these companies can't make money on these systems (Microsoft seems to have finally made it, but we'll see how 2008 financial numbers look), then it's a failure.
Also, Nintendo thrived during the N64/Gamecube generations without "hardcore" titles. People forget that Nintendo still had the best profit margins over that time, even though they didn't move as many units.[ Oracle ] [ Level 21 ] [ Rank: 182 ]bids
1@ixaarii,
The one thing is that Mass Effect and Assassin's Creed are horrible examples because of the fact that neither really blew the majority of people's minds this year (games like Bioshock and Call of Duty 4 are much better example). I do not see how you can say that those are games that blew everyone's minds and then see it's not just about a single area for a game to excel in. Both of those games had major technical issues that ruined the game for a significant number of people. Mass Effect was able to excel in graphics and story. Assassin's Creed was able to excel in a bit of a new control scheme (free-running and climbing). It is also very arguable that Galaxy "blew people out of their minds" just as much as these games you mentioned if not more so and I believe this (explain the long lines at E3 2006 to play it when the crowd that was present were all hardcore gamers). I also don't see how you can shrug off Galaxy and Metroid when they both got multiple elements that you mention right after. For example, Galaxy has barely any loading, believeable animations (believeable environments doesn't really apply to its art style, if you mean realism by "believeable environments), pretty dang good graphics for its art style, good controls, and a super strong physics system. The hardware is not as constraining as you believe it is. Also, though third parties are obviously not as up to or above par as Nintendo is, they have managed to make some games that excel in different areas such as some facets of multiplayer, framerate, art direction, control, etc.
When I mentioned HD, I meant more in the terms of having the games in HD with the no less than the effects that currently have and actually more effects. I was talking outside of just the meaning of resolution because obviously any console of even last generation could have stuck up a blank screen in 1080p on a HD monitor.
Nintendo is trying to maintain mass appeal in appealing to casual, mainstream, and hardcore gamers. Their hardware is able to have multiplatform titles on it - it is just that hardcore gamers do not want to play these titles on the Wii because the third parties fail to make them quality games. Also, the Brothers in Arms team is currently trying out Unreal Engine 3 for the Wii and multiple other varying types of engines have been made available for the Wii. A deveoper does not need to license an engine just to make a title for a console - look at CoD4, it runs off a proprietary engine and was one of the best games of the year.
Many of the things that you mention I covered in my most recent comment in which I address the problem with hardcore games on the Wii - in doing with third parties mostly.[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 294 ]bids
1@lstormy10,
My guess is that out of the 25 hardcore titles you mention a bigger number will prove to have less impact than expected, and this is my reasoning: whether they realize it or not a lot a lot of reviewers and users grade a game on several levels like graphics/sound/gameplay/innovation...
and that's where these titles are in trouble: due to the Wiis hardware graphics can't push even theoretically as high as competitors, gameplay can be limiting by hardware (for example loading times, size of world..) and similarly innovation is often based on some new exploit of hardware rather than software... all these reasons make me expect that even those of the 25 not filtered out by bad execution or lower production values of studios going cheap for the less demanding platform, will not be stellar. Say out of those 10 turn out to be great games... they will however I predict be graded as "good" or "solid" instead of "fantastic" or "mind blowing must experience!!!" because of the lack of these things. This is why i'd expect them to be like I think Galaxy & Metroid are now: great experiences for those who already have a Wii or will be getting one, but not something that gets PC gamers who've never owned a Nintendo console feel like they *have* to experience those games.[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 444 ]bids
1@lstormy10,
The games you mentioned I have the impression that are generally considered good/solid but didn't blow people out of their minds like say Mass Effect or surprise Assasin's did. One example that comes to mind is God of War 2: got amazing reviews and is considered an awesome game by all, but nobody (afaik) thought to nominate it game of the year. Similar story with Galaxy & Metroid: my point being that there's a lot of buzz and excitement about games that push the envelope in many ways, one of which being technology, giving people things they haven't experienced before, and for Wii even in it's first year it's hard to do that outside of it's controls. I don't think it's just about the graphics, it's about big gameplay possibilities: having streaming worlds with no loadings, believable animations and environments, strong physics systems... these are not things about the graphics as much as they are about gameplay, and even though we might not like it many are constrained by hardware. Wii's strong point is it's interface/control, but that's just one of the many things that form the impression & immersion of gamers. A platform to endure a long time and stay in gamers' hearts and on their lips it has to keep having every year the must play "game of the year"s...
On the topic of HD I make a great difference between HD and hardware processing power. In my understanding HD is just a question of resolution of rendering, but that's not such a big deal: you could render at a huge resolution and bring no extra detail because you have just as many polygons, or you can render quite low res and apply lots of effects and content (afaik big games like halo, cod4... are doing). This second thing is what I believe matters and it's the one that requires stronger hardware and will bring about the Wii 2, not HD in it's meaning of resolution.
The big question is to me how much is Nintendo willing to separate it's hardcore backgrounds from the masses that give it sales. If they are willing to do it they could keep the current Wii targeting it for either everybody or as a 2nd console, but if they want a piece of the hardcore slice they would need to make hardware which is in the same ballpark with competitors: hardware that will get Unreal Engine 3 and Id's Rage so that multiplatforms are developed automatically for it. They could make it without that but while there's a lot of money to be made with casual gaming I was reading this article saying how the industry would be quite stupid to abandon it's cash cow: game enthusiasts who are willing to pay higher prices for great content and who have a higher attach rate because they are constant spenders.[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 444 ]bids
1@ixaarii,
Also (as an add-on to my comment right before this one), I would like to point out that it is not the quantity of hardcore titles on the Wii, but rather the quality that third parties are putting out hardcore titles at and whether those hardcore gamers that want to own Wiis are able to get their hands on one. The past year of games for the Wii hardcore games that have been just subpar and sometimes atrocious (e.g. Far Cry, Red Steel, Medal of Honor: Vanguard, Call of Duty 3, Soul Calibur Legends, etc. - I included examples from numerous developers/publishers to show that its a problem with most of the third party on the Wii).
Next year will see the release of at least 25 hardcore titles that we know about as of now (so most of those are for the first half of 2008) and the question is not rather the Wii will be getting hardcore titles, it will be rather the hardcore titles the Wii will be getting are of good and great quality. This past year has seen more subpar quality hardcore games than good or great quality hardcore games (and this fact applies mostly to those titles coming from third parties). Another problem for hardcore games on the Wii applies to both all game developers/publishers: publishers and/or developers of hardcore games are not promoting those hardcore games as much as they promote other titles including titles for other systems. Nintendo was called out for not promoting Metroid and has been called out for only advertising to casual gamers. I cannot really remember much promotion for any third party hardcore game on the Wii in the past year at all.
The problem for hardcore gamers are not that there are not hardcore games on the Wii (though the number is obviously still trying to gain some speed), but rather (at least) the following list: quality of hardcore games, originality of hardcore games (Ubisoft was really guilty at launch with their port heaven), and promotion of hardcore games by their publishers/developers.[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 294 ]bids
1@ixaarii,
Hardcore gamers do not all want GTA, Final Fantasy, and Assassin's Creed specifically. It is more about having games that have certain experiences. Thus far Nintendo (and somewhat some of the third parties) have managed to get out games geared specifically to the hardcore - e.g. Metroid, the Resident Evils, Medal of Honor: Heroes 2, Galaxy, Guitar Hero 3, and even Manhunt 2. All of these games managed to look pretty good or great and all had a good amount of world detail (especially Metroid and Galaxy). The hardcore gamer is still being fed games that they want, but the hardcore is starting to feel a cold wind from Nintendo and next year is going to be the real proving year as whether Nintendo is going to be able to get third parties and their internal studios to get out good and great hardcore games out on the Wii.
It's not really that Nintendo will have "to catch up" in a couple of years, but rather that they will need to update. They have already managed to surpass their competitors in a couple of important areas (mass appeal, proving new control schemes that feel better than traditional controls, and in first party quality). The largest reason for Nintendo to release a Wii 2 in about 2010 is to maintain hardcore audiences that they have at that time, bring more appeal to the console (if at that time HD is finally widespread - like at least 70% of populations), and continue to maintain momentum or increase the momentum of sales of the Wii.[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 294 ]bids
1@lstormy10,
I believe hardware does matter: true, if close enough the cheapest-weakest console won in the past, but Wii is not close enough to the competition: it's in it's first year and developers can't put on it the big game of the years and big gamer titles. However it doesn't really make sense to tlak about who wins in a market that's diversifying like this. As long as sales are made everybody wins. However I do believe that to maintain high sales in 2009-2010 Nintendo would have to release a new wii which could get a lot of the ports from the other platforms. That is unless it turns out Nintendo can survive completely without pleasing the hardcore gamers (by that i mean all the people wanting GTA, final fantasy, Assasin's creed... who care about features in graphics and world detail), in which case they're quite off the charts. Hard for me to imagine that way for long... or maybe it's possible but it just shifts from my areas of interest into realms like fitness equipment and toy like devices. Those segments I bet have huge markets... it's just that I personally tend to have a blind spot there. As much as I'd hope for gaming to be there I don't think games are yet like movies for the hardware to not matter: I can't really see as probable for Wii to have too many best shooter of the year, best rpg, best action game... in the years to come... which I think will leave it behind as a platform of choice for many gamers as time goes on. Obviously huge sales can continue theoretically without them, as there's a much bigger chunk of non-gamer population than gamer one, but personally I think that right now a big chunk of Wii hype has started from gamers... and if these move away...
That's why I agree with Pachter that Nintendo will in a couple of years release a Wii 2 to catch up to it's competitors and allow multiplatforms.[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 444 ]bids
2@Laoldar,
Your statement of "[having the best technology] never mattered in previous console generations either" is very true. Look at the numerous competitors that stepped up to face the GameBoy in the portable market in the 1990s and everyone failed even though almost everyone had better technology. Even the PS2 was the least powerful console last generation and it had a resounding win. One or both of the Nintendo-Sega console competition years had Sega with the better technology in its console, but we all know where Sega ended up with its console business.
I would not expect another Wii-design (read redesign... I had to put that "pun" in there because of the numerous ones like Wii-mote) until 2010 at the earliest. (There may be a model that comes out that bundles in DVD functionality in Japan or something, but I mean a real new model - such as one with HD built-in.) I think it is likely for the Wii to see another model in 2010 because of the fact that it could just add in HD functionality and have total backwards compatibility thru upscaling and older Wiis could always play the newer HD games thru downscaling (simple solutions = easier to justify a new model). Plus, it only makes total financial sense for Nintendo to introduce a new model around that time (when demand has died down from huge levels as of right now).
I would also suspect that Nintendo will be launching a new DS in 2009 or 2010 saying that projected worldwide sales (as of the end of their last financial year) totals are going to hit about 81 million by the end of March 2008 and most likely hit over 100 million or maybe 110 million (depending on sales momentum) by March 2009. I do not see Nintendo doing the launch of two new major pieces of hardware in the same year and another model of the Wii would have to be scheduled with another model of the DS being launched also.[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 294 ]bids
2@ixaarii,
The next Nintendo console won't be out until at least late 2010...more likely 2011. No way would they put another out in 2009 unless Wii sales dramatically crash in 2008 (which won't happen).
If people learn anything from 2007 sales (and from the DS/PSP lifetime sales), it should be that having the best technology doesn't matter. In fact, it never mattered in previous console generations either (the most advanced system never wins).[ Oracle ] [ Level 21 ] [ Rank: 182 ]bids
1Michael Pachter, Shane Satterfield and N'Gai Croal on the Wii past, future & ps4/xbox720...
My predictions would be similar to what Pachter is saying: Wii 2 sooner (2009-ish) catching up in technology to competing platforms, PS4 not rushing in...
the one thing I don't see is what he was saying about Sony rushign to launch before MS. Like they were saying I think this generation is here to stay longer, but while I do agree 360 will stay a lot longer and that eye toy could do amazing things, I do believe that MS might launch a sooner it's next product: it was sooner out the gates with it's current one and that way they will have the technology edge again for a few years leading to the alternating consoles future I'm predicting: the 2 major consoles launching alternatively so that at the midlife of one you have the new high tech of the other attracting the big spenders, while those who like the stability can have longer lifespans... then again this could create a problem for publishers because with the multiplatforms they wouldn't be taking advantage fully of the high tech one... but in an age where content should matter more than the supporting technology this could be overcome...[ Oracle ] [ Level 20 ] [ Rank: 444 ]
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1
If your criteria for good games is "non-kid oriented with extremely long cinematics well done and hours of voice acting", you should try to import Japanese version of games you like. A lot of games in Japanese version have voice acting, while the US version doesn't have it.
It seems that voice acting is more important in Japan compared to US and Europe.